Have Your Say Discussion Forum

A vitally important place to air your emotions, how you feel and what you think!

The F4J Have Your Say area is simply a place for everyone where you get the Freedom, Peace, Love and Respect to share what's going on for you.

There is no right or wrong about what you say or how you say it —
the main thing is you let it out!

So have your say, vent your spleen, say your peace, let your feelings, emotions and thoughts run free as opposed to bottling it up causing ill health in you and for others.

Chances are there is somebody relating to exactly what's happening or of concern to you. What you say may very well help others as well as yourself. Once we all realise we are not alone and we are all in this together in one form or another, as living men and women with fundamentally the same psychological and biological structure, a great sense of relief and peace can come from this knowing.

However, the only condition in this forum is we ask you not to identify family members by their true names. Not because of man made rules, fear or ignorance, but purely based on respect for yourself, your family and reasons of higher good, else you're free to let loose.

This Have Your Say section is an open forum and not censored as such giving you the freedom to let rip with whatever's on your mind.

So with all that out of the way.... Go straight to writing a comment now

    <Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next>110 - 61 Comments... +Add Yours ...Over 285,468 views
    110. A New Idea - By:Steve B from SA, Australia on March 9, 2013 @ 4:40 am

    1. Parents don't separate until youngest 18


    2. Parents stay in counselling/mediation sessions until they work out mutually amicable plan to take care of kids until youngest 18.

    3. Everything 50/50 as if parents weren't separated.

    This may seem simple and unfair but so are the alternatives!

    Aust Rosella Co finished - By:Bewitched from Vic, Australia on December 5, 2012 @ 5:27 am
    With yet another Australian company going down the girgler, after reading the below, one can't help think this collapse was planned and forced. If only we could hear the real truth about the Rosella fall.

    "Without support Australia may lose the ability to grow and process food in the future, placing the food security at risk, said Mr Gurney.

    It is shocking to think of a food industry in Australia without a classic Australian brand such as Rosella, and action is desperately required to reverse this trend before all of our food is produced overseas," he said.

    Source: http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8574592/rosella-receivership-news-shocking-ausveg
    Freedom of Google - By:F4J from Victoria, Australia on December 3, 2012 @ 9:49 pm
    The Web represents freedom to learn, grow and thrive - an inalienable right we all have.

    As predicted, Google is the next target to be controlled by those at the top.

    Read more and cast your vote at:
    Truth - By:Steve Butcher from Victoria, Australia on November 27, 2012 @ 11:49 pm
    "They must find it difficult...
    Those who have taken authority as the truth,
    Rather than the truth as authority."

    — G. Massey, Egyptologist
    ACA - Divorce Costs - By:MrNatural from Vic, Australia on November 20, 2012 @ 9:56 pm
    Speaking of A Current Affair

    that previous 2yo abuse story - By:gman from vic, australia on November 20, 2012 @ 6:42 am
    goto a current affair dude
    NOT HAPPY - By:Anonymous from nsw, Australia on November 20, 2012 @ 1:00 am
    When in the family court the evidence I was required to look at included actual footage of my 2yo daughter being abused by the local fire cheif and his mates. No way the police were going to investigate someone like that. Because it had been seen by the family court it couldn't be re-tried. The other heresay evidence meant the judge couldn't do anything either. Guess who doesn't get to see their kids because of what those **** state government people did. I hear you loud and clear Denny.
    NOT HAPPY - By:Denny from N.S.W, Australia on November 16, 2012 @ 8:34 pm
    My ex made a complaint to F.A.C.S saying she feard her father was having innapropriate relations with our 17 year old son ,when i found out a couple of days later they laughed it off like it was a joke ,wrote to Pru Gower -minister for F.A.C.S and they did nothing ,my 1 year old daughter is in care with the exes parents as my ex has bipolar and i am in detention @ Villawood - where do i stand ? any other situation the police would of been called ???? not happy - discrimination and failure on there behalf to protect my children .........
    Hooray for our side. - By:Peter Butler from nsw, Australia on November 14, 2012 @ 2:10 am
    Well done to you people for having your say.
    Absurd laws liken allowing hear-say evidence in F courts has always lead to nonsense judgements. Two well known examples are the inquisition and star chamber debacles.
    You people putting the latest up for all to see means we keep up to date on the latest issues.
    Keep up the good work!
    No care for women reply - By:gman from vic, australia on November 9, 2012 @ 10:56 pm
    i hear ya buddy, if one thing comes out of decades of family law abuse it will be men gaining their power back.
    100. Disgusted in the justice system - By:Steve Perry from Vic, Oz on December 26, 2019 @ 12:00 pm
    Onya Denny, wondered how that hole of a place was still going the good ol 'Family Caught'. It doesn't surprise me the FC processes are still antiquated, biased and broken down causing still to this day many a family hardship psychologically, emotionally and of course financially. Family assets often being looted under the guise of the best interests of the children. Huh.. best interests for themselves more like it.
    I'm sure if there was an FC like ours in Ireland it would have been leveled by now.
    Disgusted in the justice system - By:Denny .A from NSW, Australia on November 8, 2012 @ 6:34 am
    just wanted to add that in my recent experience with the family court, they are still very bias as far as the fathers rights are, we are a forgoten bunch that the people from F.A.C.S and other groups can manipulate to there advantage - wheres our say ???
    csa human rights abuses - By:Jerry from QLD, AUSTRALIA on November 5, 2012 @ 9:22 pm
    Can someone point me to the CSA objection by gman as cant see it!!... cheers in advance
    csa human rights abuses - By:gman from victoria, australia on October 31, 2012 @ 3:01 pm
    hi i wish to post my csa assessment objection as their decision clearly vilates human rights, though this objecion is five pages in length and over the prescribed posting length, is there any other way to post this here. this is such an objection that it creates criminal liablility on the csa members, i do not yet knnow the outcome though i suspect it will finalise with criminal charges.
    Stick to the point. - By:Peter Butler from NSW, Australia on October 30, 2012 @ 4:59 am
    The polls clearly show what happens once peaceful protest is silenced. The politicians distract us with buzz words like mysogeny and unfair tax. Even F4J has some protest about corruption in place of anything relevant on it's list of venues. If Australian men bend over and stop loudly objecting to our draconian family laws, then we'll be the men that allowed another stolen generation to happen.
    Where is your voice Australia? - By:Petie from New South Wales, Australia on October 29, 2012 @ 8:22 pm
    Australians and men just cop it on the chin alot of the time I think. We move on attempting to get away from the pain but we never really do. In hindsight I wished I had have stood up to my ex and the system all those years ago instead of running away. I miss my children and sorry for their pain and grief too. I hope they can one day forgive me and don't blame themselves. It sounds like a confession I know but the truth inside of me needs to come out.
    Where is your voice Australia? - By:George Cahill from NSW, Australia on September 12, 2012 @ 9:48 pm
    Many men in Australia are apathetic I'm afraid Davey.
    Convict conditioning, brainwashing or fear, call it what you like, many australian men are still asleep.

    Whilst many prefer dumbness, I prefer to be awake!!
    News Link! - By:Daveyone from London, England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    Great I can post on News Link again take a look!
    What does F4J stand for? - By:Hazr from act, australia on August 7, 2012 @ 12:55 am
    Reality check. Vigilantes grabbed children from Italy, even ignoring the international courts. One Wollongong woman hired mercinaries to take children overseas and not an eyebrow was raised. The pschological violence and financial depridation of family law is only a small part of what natural fathers are suffering. If we are descibed merely as 'sperm donors' then it is our detractors that are behaving like animals, not us.
    F4J appears to advocate love and justice. If that is correct then patience and peaceful protest are still our best friends.
    90. looking up 4 fathers - By:hazr from act, australia on July 24, 2012 @ 3:11 am
    Great pete! That and the hap mean the system is now fair, or is it yet another confidence trick?
    looking up 4 fathers - By:pete from nsw, aust on July 10, 2012 @ 8:54 am
    Spoke to a dad other day who said courts a giving dads more time with their kids. I was surprised in light of past years & my experience but nonetheless its good to hear fathers are not complaining anymore and things are on the up & up
    Men & Family Court 30yrs ago - By:wayne from vic, australia on June 14, 2012 @ 1:33 pm
    30 years on and many men who were abandoned by their wives and children humiliated and deeply scarred by the Family Court are now suffering, as their adult kids come back into their lives looking for answers, an inheritance, handouts and possibly instant gratification with financial rewards.

    Even a slap in the face from his daughter, as well as expecting sole title to a block of land that was earnt through many long hard years of recycling aluminum cans.

    Even his son now looks like the man he once knew as a family friend, who now upon looking back, did seem to hang around far too often.

    It all just hurts too much including getting old, especially after 30yrs of burying unresolved hurt and issues being abandoned, humiliated and emotionally starved of love.

    What will become of all these men?

    Rogue Trader - By:Bazza from Vic, Aust on June 7, 2012 @ 12:35 pm
    Nick Leeson was the guy in this film and Liam Neeson was great in Taken with Taken 2 out soon. Recently saw the 90's movie Rogue Trader with Ewen McGregor playing his role. In the movie he got 6yrs and apparently never stole a dime. He lost everything - well his wife anyway, who said she only cared about him and not having money. After she left him though who did she marry? Yep an investment banker..lol If you gona do the time you may have well put a bit aside for your rehabilitation fund.
    No care for women - By:Daveyone from London, England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    A message to Dave Matthews I suggest you read a book Back from the brink by rogue trader Liam Neeson this is an eyeopener on your very concerns!
    By the way I still cannot log in to this site the page just goes blank
    No care for women - By:Dave Matthews from QLD, Australia on June 2, 2012 @ 10:45 pm
    For some reason I used to always consider & wonder what women wanted. Now I am finding more and more these days in my forties I don't give a shit. Is there something wrong with me, just plain fed up with the world of women or am I finally becoming a normal man?
    Ditch the which? - By:Hazr from act, australia on May 23, 2012 @ 4:20 am
    Events move on. Full marks to the father who has fought in the international courts and a foreign country for his family.
    Vigilantees win again. - By:hazr from act, australia on May 21, 2012 @ 3:20 am
    Australian police can't find the children that are the subject of international court proceedings, NOT. If family law vigilantees have more power than the international courts, F4J can get serious!
    grandson - By:MrNatural from Vic, Aust on May 19, 2012 @ 12:20 pm
    Onya Spencer... Simply the Family Court and all it's merry band of know it all nothings (ie. lawyers and would be professionals) are mostly all useless. They all play a game and put on a show to help justify taking a family's assets.

    Family Court is a misnomer. A more apt name should be "Family Caught".

    If the father is threatening the belt there are issues there that need to be looked at. If he's a bad man and hurts your grandson send an urgent email to F4J with the man's address. No more to be said on that subject.

    If it was an isolated threat, he may have been under stress as the system and a breakup can push people pretty bad. If he treats his son bad he will no doubt lose him, but more importantly let's hope he grows up without serious issues to deal with in adulthood.

    Forget the courts and CRC's, common sense and common law or fair play in the proper sense, as you just won't get it. It's all about MONEY, MONEY, POWER, CONTROL, their fragile EGOs & keeping the good name of the court (racket) in tact.

    The answer short of the guillotine for many in the Family Court System is simply for your son to walk with his feet away from his father and straight towards strong child caring professionals that can be trusted. If your grandson does this enough of his own free volition, and it gets recorded this will be a step in the right direction for him, if his will and wishes are strong enough for him to remain persistent.

    A good article on this site about an 11yo running away and finally getting his wishes to see the parent of his choice is:


    One may think I am a cynic. No... just someone with plenty of experience in this area, unfortunately.

    grandson - By:spencer way from vitcoria, australia on May 19, 2012 @ 11:30 am
    i have been through the family system watching my grandson being tossed from pillar to post ,he is 11 yrs old he made a decision to stay with his mum (shared custody)had enough of his dad making continual threats to him about his family and taking to him with a belt at the last hearing our solicitor felt the court should here from the child no way says judge, in the convention on the rights of the child the lad has a right to express his views freely on all matters affecting him and the right to enjoy all of the rights of the the(CRC)without discrimination (part 1 article 12 parts 1.2 crc)the total lack of interest in doctor,child welfare reports from the court was sickening,the total stupidy of the so called court appointed child lawyers, this person has never seen my grandson,and found it more entertaining to talk and snigger to the oppositions lawyer. may be sitting here as worldly as i think i am at 64 yrs i am just plane old naive, i feel sad for the outcome, my grandson is week about back with his father, but i feel sadder for the very very sick system we have in this supposed modern society, or should system be replaced with club?
    80. Is the split fair? - By:John W from Sydney, Australia on May 16, 2012 @ 9:00 am
    In the twentieth century the law changed to emphasize the best interests of the child. In assessing what is best for a child the law does not take into account the financial stability of the parents in a fair way. Instead, the law gives custody of children and after that does a financial settlement to ensure the child is financially looked after. In other words, the law creates a stacked deck e.g. A husband works and has a good work history, whilst a mother has been a stay at home mum and is not, on her own, financially stable. The law would say the mother has and has had more time to spend with the child so continuing this relationship has priority over the father and is in the best interests of the child. The court gives the mother custody of the child. Only then does the court allocate the financial resources of the family to ensure the child is looked after financially.
    This is where the focus should be. The division of financial resourses following a break up should not be done after the child has been allocated to a parent, but before. In giving custody, the court\'s should take into account, amongst other factors, the ability of a parent to financially support the child. There should also be pressure to move away from the concept that marital assets should be split fifty fifty, no matter who earned the money. Being a stay at home mother or father is a pleasure and is not work. It does not have the same financial value as a successful businessman or even a regular working person. Almost anyone can be a stay at home parent, not everyone can run a successful business or even work solidly for many years. can we change these two principals? 1. custody and after that division of assets should become division of assets and then custody is decided. 2. Stay at home parents should get much less than 50%.
    Family Justice - By:Daveyone from London, England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    I have attempted to sign in on this site and seem unable to do so any longer so offer my final blog to you which will be published this week 'Family Justice & Child Welfare The Truth' Idedicate it to all those in Australia who go in pursuit of the truth and whom I have been associated with over the past 8 years, good luck to you all Davey http://world4justice.wordpress.com/
    Abandondment Story - By:Jamie O from South Australia, Australia on May 3, 2012 @ 5:25 pm
    Over the years I have suffered greatly with what I understand to be abandonment, loss and other issues from the desertion by my biological father from the age of 5.

    I don't remember much below about the age of 10 and pretty well nothing under 5. This so called father person not known to me abandoned my mother, my three brothers and myself leaving her and us in a very destitute position back in the 60's. There was no social security & positive support like there is today. She was affected so badly from the stress that she had a brain tumor, nearly died and pretty much ruined her life. Although upon talking to her, you wouldn't think so from her good sense of humor and positive, supportive sacrificial nature for her family on a continual and tireless basis, even whilst somewhat blind and immobilised.

    As for the dog of a father (no disrespect to dogs) he has no doubt had an empty life from the lack of many family members that he could have had the privilege of being with. Perhaps it's really his loss!

    I guess I want to send a message to all fathers & mothers not to abandon their children to pursue their own selfish and narcissistic needs, for the ramifications for the children left behind can be quite horrendous for a long time and possibly most of one's life.

    Although, I get pretty angry towards this let me say sperm donor of a Dad for all the pain caused to our family with some pretty strong feelings at times i might add, I then think we were better off without a useless father who may have made our lives far worse in other ways.

    Ive pretty much come to accept these days (well I think I have), that the past can't be changed and it's what it was, attempting not to lose myself in the past for it won't do any good. It doesn't mean i don't get worked up about it at times, although, I try to forgive, understand and be grateful for what I have in the present. This is not easy I might add, taking much hard and repetitive work however I persist when I can.

    As I am more aware these days these days, I believe I am a better person for all my experiences, perceived negative or otherwise. However, each day is a new opportunity to continue to purify my mind and soul, hopefully bettering myself wherever I can, for myself, loved ones and all those around me, for it's all I believe anyone can really do.

    May we all live happily, in harmony & in peace!
    Family Justice Reform! - By:Daveyone from London, England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    Says it all for me how about you?
    A better world - By:Petie from New South Wales, Australia on April 22, 2012 @ 12:30 am
    Just watched Zeitgeist Moving Forward Doco & what a mind blower!!!!! If anyone hasn't you should!!!

    Family Justice : Worldwide! - By:Daveyone from London , England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    The only way to succeed in this is to come together asone voice around the world UNITY is key!!( Check out the news and forums on this site too)
    action - By:saswinD from vic, Australia on April 18, 2012 @ 8:51 am
    Time we got active
    All of us

    Inter Alia Hypocrisy - By:Steve Perry from Vic, Oz on April 14, 2012 @ 1:50 am
    Sounds like a total outrage, a game that keeps you throwing away your time, energy and good money after bad. The only way to win is not to play at all! Be great if you put a brief story together, every piece counts to expose their stinky rubbish that many still get looted & caught in. The whole Family Court/legal system is a disgrace, a sham, systemic and malignant. It won’t ever get better it just needs to be cut out altogether!
    Inter Alia Hypocrisy - By:Disgraceful from Vic, Australia on September 13, 2012 @ 3:47 am
    I have just been the victim of a recent family court judgement. In short i had evidence by a barrister and lawyer that my ex wife's lawyer had given advice and represented my daughter in proceedings dismissed by a judge in total contravention of Full Court law and principles. I am forced to appeal to the full court. Absolute disgrace for a court that professes to protect children except when the offender is one of their own. Would like to construct an article about this and expose this crime
    Who's up for a better world? - By:Rambo from NSW, Aust on March 21, 2012 @ 7:33 am
    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
    70. Devey Bows Out! - By:Bewitched from Vic, Australia on February 21, 2016 @ 8:23 am
    Some people put in a great deal of their life and make considerable sacrifices to help turn an antiquated Family Law System into a better solution when one parent decides to make a break. DaveyOne is one of those people!

    There is much that can be said of the Family Court System with a great swag of it not particularly favourable. Especially, in current times where the collective consciousness of the community is at an all time high with people all round expecting far better types of services and resolution processes from the Tax Driven Government, both short and long term which are beneficial to family members, and not simply the toxic rubbish it keeps dishing out!

    A family separation is a period in one's life requiring a great deal of love, care, compassion framed with intelligent ways that help family members accommodate change they neither wanted or know how to deal with, leaving them in a more positive state, not worse.

    The destructive mechanisms still operating today in our archaic Family Breakdown establishment must be dismantled. This of course is obvious to the enlightened.

    How many years(30+), how many deaths or how many crying out for an overhaul or abolition of the Family Court does it take for better alternatives to emerge?

    A few lines below is only a brief glimpse and opinion from one individual, although I'm sure many can add to it and reiterate these sentiments in their own words.

    The Family Law machine is biased - not in favour of children, mothers, fathers or even common sense, but rather an alignment of the legal fraternity's financial and egotistical own self interest - individually and as a whole.

    The legal fraternity's mantra and agenda is simple - it's about money, power, control and fun. A pretentious and elitist view shared only by those being rewarded in the system from other people's misery. This has to STOP!

    Fractured families suffering from immaturity, naivety, and a myriad of human issues and mental illness common to us all, are often fleeced of their assets, income, livelihood and self esteem when found caught up in a system that once started, is extremely hard if not impossible to end, before everything has gone. And I mean everything; whatever your meaning of everything may encompass.

    Adults, children and grandchildren alike are often left with a diminished stock of assets in their life. Family assets such as loving, caring and emotionally connected relationships at hand to support the growth and well being of fellow loved ones for many years to come can vanish in an instant. Family Court Orders are made keeping them away for no real reason or benefit to children, save to appease an often vengeful spouse who carelessly throws a fistful of dollars at lawyers to do their dirty work.

    Finances and resources are too diminished for family members making life more difficult for the long and countless years ahead. What greater use to a child would $50,000 be, than in the pocket of a lawyer?

    Whilst all this makes sense to most of us, it seems not so in Family Law circles and our legislative decision makers, making the aforementioned agenda of the legal fraternity appear the only important consideration.

    Prove me wrong! In the snap of a finger, change the family legal system into a peaceful, psychologically and financially sound forum for common sense and fair resolution, education and transition into a new way of life.

    I am happy to be wrong, contrary to my own personal experiences and thousands of other families being savaged and scarred for the remainder of their days.

    Whilst adults must always assume a great deal of the responsibility for their family affairs, it somehow seems unfair that the retribution for having ever been apart of a family that has broken up and been dragged through the Family Court system, largely outweighs the harm we as a society should ever want to inflict upon our own kind, and especially our young.
    25% of families? - By:hazr from act, Australia on February 29, 2012 @ 2:12 am
    Victorian child welfare authorities have indicated they want to intervene in 25% of families and act immediately against about 4%. Those demands make Sharia Law look moderate. Jules's family law reforms have already given the same extreemists authority over anyone unlucky enough to be seperated. Surely some public figure will admit that proposed government inteference in 25% of families is derogatory and absurd.
    State Santion Child Abusers - By:saswinD(PSN) from victoria, austraila on February 23, 2012 @ 5:23 am
    first off are you ok(re;self)
    can fully belive that the FLC would do such a thing
    the sad fact is that the FLC has the power to destroy lives
    with the conection to realiety that a demencher suffer has
    i feel for you
    All done with mirrors. - By:snorkel from act, australia on February 22, 2012 @ 11:29 pm
    Lobor's "whipping boy" has revolted after a year. Family law in action?
    State Santion Child Abusers - By:Larry Cairns from NSW, Australia on February 2, 2014 @ 10:27 pm
    A Family Court Judge, Justice Johnson,has granted full custody of my children to a convicted pedophile who grained interim custody by lying and decent. This person is not even the biological father. Justice Johnson has denied both biological parent, who have done nothing wrong, any contact with their children. Justice Johnson ignored the court appointed child physiologist's plead to have the children remove immediately because they were at risk of being sexually assaulted. My children were kidnapped by this pedophile. This shows that the family courts and the Judges that make such abscene decisions simply state sanction child abusers!
    exes and choice - By:saswinD ( PSN) from vic, australia on January 20, 2012 @ 1:04 am
    my boys are 17 & 15 now, I have been dealing with this stuff for about that long!!! In the beginning i just agreed to her demands requests/ demands the whole time about 6 yrs ago she dropped the boys off for access at my place. Rare in & of itself! Long story short!!! GOT married (Happy Families) (still kick myself) that’s when the abuse really started, had to leave before we killed each other!!! took boys with me ( as I told her I would ) anyway that’s when FLC & CSA kicked in big time, been to hell and back enough times to drive the road with my eyes closed, have got to the point where it was ether buy KY & touch my toes OR draw line in the sand. Drawing the line in the sand was the hardest thing I have ever done, had to tell my boys that I loved them but am prepped to not see them till they grow up and want to see me for themselves, Not court or HER decision but theirs, (So much fear) one of the best things I have done is to buy them a PS3 we play games with each other and TALK to each other over the SYS she does know my account name on PSN but not the second one, (the one she thinks is just a friend of theirs) (keeping contact) Drawing the line in the sand has given ME back the ability to look in the mirror again with some sense of self respect. My boys are starting to see for themselves how it REALLY is. Keep the faith, trust that your kids are smarter than we are & don’t give up.
    family justice - By:hazr from act, australia on January 11, 2012 @ 5:30 am
    Opposition to "winner takes all" family law can be compared to occupy. People are more important than money so the F4J cause will be historically more important than occupy.
    Family Justice: make it happen in 2012! - By:Daveyone from London, England on February 1, 2019 @ 3:24 pm
    Having just published my 170th Campaign blog, 200th political blog and definative Family Justice blog following the condesending Review the Ministry of Justice published last November I am not sure I have much more to say on this other then lets get behind all the excellent protests , lobbying . local radio comments and ultimatly Occupy movement and make it happen this year! Happy New year folks!
    Internet F4J - By:Peter Butler from NSW, Australia on February 2, 2014 @ 10:25 pm
    Is 'ditch the witch' a clever play on all Australians being subject to witch hunt type family laws, or an attack on women in general? Yes, messages from F4J are now being deleted as junk without most intended recipients knowing, and yes peaceful protests are now being broken up by violent agitators that no-one seems to know. As bumper stickers and letter box drops etc are still available as a means of communication, I suggest the above question be resolved.
    CSA - By:Peter Butler from NSW, Australia on November 14, 2011 @ 4:48 am
    Revolution is ugly and deadly. The intellectual property laws our government has fiddled are what ties up technolgies such as genetic engineering. Once people start doing things like smoking lawn clippings instead of throwing them away I suspect most voters will realise that the welfare approach to law is ill-considered. So no need for revolution, just patience.
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