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Who wants to be dictated to by the State on how you support your children what, how and when?
Whilst many views float around arguing for and against child support, most decent fathers and parents would argue the issue is not whether or not they wish to support their children, but rather the often unfair conditions imposed upon them.
Simply, it's an attack on the nature of a father's freedom and how he best wishes to raise and support his children in the many different ways a responsible father can, which are often more effective and benefical to a child than any 'slap-bang' instrument of government and statism can ever be.
For a father going through separation/divorce, experiencing the loss of family and children, horrendous false allegations, litigation, uncertainty of where your children are and how they are doing, often causes ill health, work and life instability in so many ways. Also, the effects from not having a fully functioning and emotionally present Dad in a child's life can be equally, if not more devestating as their development can be hindered considerably.
Then if that isn't bad enough, along comes an assessment from the Child Support Agency (CSA) for an outlandish sum of money based on your capacity to work at the highest rate when you were fit and able and on fire, which is possibly a stark contrast to where your financial position is today, or will be in the future if you are unable to recover from the upheaval of a traumatic separation that's often compared to a fate worse than death.
From 2006 CSA powers in Australia have increased to not only garnish your wages, but directly withdraw from bank accounts any amount they deem appropriate, siezing assets of any sort to pay the often highly questionable and unjust debts. As Fathers are assaulted with such draconian measures, one can only feel a sense of dictatorship giving rise to a totalitarian society not a free Australia causing fathers to unite and fight for their rights and freedom.
As there are many issues surrounding child support and the effects upon fathers, children and families,
Im a mum and have to agree with you CSA are doing the same thing to me .My x owns a ABN and 3 business but doesnt work doesnt do his tax nothing BUT owns a house goes on holidays brought a new car for himself and his new wife all with out a job so its MY FAULT cause Im not doing a thing to get money I gave up as well being the caring bitch I am its not far on him to support his kids that he helped make. Get a job CSA told me and leave him alone he has no money WTF do they think I do all week 80hrs weekends 2 jobs and Im not doing enough to support my kids so I went to court still going throu court. CSA told me once a person has a ABN its not their money its the company money and they cant go after a ABN holder
Until we form a united alliance and fight the legislation we will never win. Yes CSA are making fundamental life changing decisions with no regard for the rights of our children and yes, we are drawn into protracted battles with them and others. My list is impressive, I've spent more time in court and studied more law than most lawyers in the past three years. If we are truly frustrated enough to take action, suicide is not the option. We need as much support as we can get. We need a member in the upper and lower house as well as state representatives and it needs to start now. I wish that there was a quick answer but everything to date has been bandaid solutions. Start searching out politicians that are sympathetic to the cause and post their details here, have every pissed off 'payee' send letters of support and get some real action happening.
It's interesting to hear things from a woman's point of view who is on the sharp end a bit like us guys are. Personally, I believe that there should be a royal commission into CSA, not that any good would come out of it.
But yes, one of my key gripes is that they work out their formula on gross earnings.....who the hell gets their gross earnings? If I did, I would not have a debt to the CSA.
Personally, I see this whole thing as the federal government taxing us all twice, and earning more from the interest on that money. Given that, I doubt that it will ever stop.
But the thing that gets me SO fucking angry, is how people with their own business do not get fully audited. Example; even though my ex is now a teacher, previously, she was a graphic designer with her own business (I think she still has said business, but has hidden it somehow). But anyway, in the years prior to her becoming a teacher, her earning on paper were..........$5,000 per year!
WTF? People would not get out of bed in the morning for that, but CSA accepted that as a figure? How fucking stupid are these people? I only have about another 2 years of it left, that is my only saving grace.
Sure is a lot of pain expressed in this forum. I'm perhaps one of the few females who has been victimised by the CSA in "reverse".
My ex husband refused to pay Child Support, for a couple of reasons: his money is his (self centred), addictions are expensive, he needs to be a victim, the CSA made an error in calculations and we have 3 children so 18%x3 off gross earnings just about put him in the poor house.
I don't believe CS should be off gross earnings - no "normal" family pays the children before the tax man so I agreed to a private arrangement with the ex. I also believe 18% per child is too much - good budgeting and thrifty practices especially when there's more than one child means a sliding scale would be realistic. The ex refused to pay anything in spite of my giving him an "out" from CSA and requested a reasonable amount, but C'link calculated as though he was so docked my pay. I was very poor and couldn't get a job.
Eventually I was forced by Centrelink to contact CSA. They made an error, charging him far too much which I didn't think was fair on the ex (even though he's a very nasty person) and it was endangering me as the ex joined the CSA in abusing me. I told them it was wrong 3 times but they ignored me.
Thus began the ex's violence towards them and more at me. He eventually worked for a company and was paid in his aunty's ABN number - went underground.
He still makes me out to be the traditional "bitch" - won't let him see the children and many more lies, all to justify his not paying a cent. In the end the CSA bullied ME to find him, get money from him and so on. They kept checking my bank accounts, asking about transfers, calling me and being very nasty. They did nothing for me at all except cause a lot of problems.
It's almost ten years ago now that I insisted I be exempted from collecting CS. It was safer and got rid of the CSA who did nothing but abuse and pressure me and treat me like a criminal. The ex thinks the CSA can sweep his tax cheques to give to his children so he hasn't put in his taxes for a decade. He'd get enough to buy a house as he's on a very high income. We're still on a low income but without the CSA in our lives, it's bliss.
So please keep in mind fellahs that the CSA abuses and uses everyone. There are people who do the wrong thing for sure but I'm suspicious that a lot of problems between couples are actually created by the CSA themselves but the ex's don't know that so blame their ex.
I despise the CSA.
I have just been through this process, but where I lodged the COA under 8A and 8B. if you want to give me some contact details, I will have a chat with you about the process and what happened at each stage (regarding provision of information and documents etc and the CSA processes).
Happy to assist if I can.
Nothing stops you getting advice on what you intend to submit before you submit anything, if you can afford it. Don't talk to them, do it all in writing.
I find it ironic that a C.O.A. can be submitted with both a Reason 8A and Reason 8B at the same time. Reason 8A is "we think you are earning more than you are declaring" and Reason 8B is "we think you are not earning as much as you should be". The irony seems to escape the CSA however.
With regards your questions :
If you don't communicate with them, they will just escalate the case without your involvement anyhow. Unless you are planning on emigrating, or living 'outside' the system, I don't know if ignoring them serves any purpose. They will not go away.
However, if you do choose to communicate with them, then I would suggest :
[a] Do not give them any information over the phone. Insist that all requests for information are sent via mail, and only reply by mail. This way you will have an audit trail.
[b] Volunteer as little information as possible. Anything that they are legally allowed to request, such as bank statements, they can obtain directly from your bank themselves. This initial part of the process is a "Fishing Expedition". They are trying to gather as much information about you as possible, so they can "cherry pick" pieces that suite their objective. Dont give it to them voluntarily.
[c] Be aware that information that you volunteer will be given to your ex-spouse. They will most certainly not ask her for the same level of disclosure.
[d] The reason I suggest volunteering as little information as possible, is that in my particular case, I gave them everything they asked for throughout the process. By the time I had completed the objection, review and AAT process, I had over 600 pages of documentation. This in response to 2 pages of statements from my ex, which initiated the C.O.A. If you have to involve a lawyer later on in the process, the fewer documents you have, the cheaper and better it will be.
[e] Request a reference number for each conversation with them and keep a log of these. However, do not rely on their call recordings. These are conveniently lost when it suites them.
You are not allowed representation at this point in the process.
You should submit your Tax Return.
Do you see your children and do you have a parenting plan in place ? The "Care Percentage" variable in the formula can make just as large an impact on you support payments.
1. Call them or not
2. I am not allowed representation, true or false
3. recent years I was 3.5K a month so I left Australia. Last tax return showed 20K earnings, do you think due to the fact I have not done my last tax return while not working it will be increased to 3.5K a month again.
Dear Jimmy, We are writing to you to advise we have received a Change of Assessment application from C..... We have an address for you, via the Child Support Consulting in South Australia, but we are required to speak to you, not your representative during this process. Note: You cannot be represented by a solicitor or another person during the change of assessment process. While an authorised representative may make simple enquiries on your behalf or explain certain limited information, they cannot act on your behalf during this process. With regards to the Change of Assessment application, C..... has applied under Reason 8A & Reason 8B. A copy of C........ application and all supporting documents have been forwarded to Child Support Consulting address, including a response form and a reply paid envelope. We would like you to participate in this process, so if you respond verbally via telephone, or online, or in writing could you please fill in the response form and send any evidence to support your income. We are yet to receive a 2015/2016 tax return from the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) for yourself, could you please provide income details for this period and also the current 2016/2017 period. This will assist in making a correct decision in relation to your income for this process. Please note the open exchange of information means all parties have the opportunity to respond and comment on the information used by the decision maker. Your personal and confidential information contained on pages 5 and 6 of the Information and Privacy section will not be given to the other party. Documents cannot be exchanged after a change of assessment decision has been made. You can access your Child Support online account through myGov. MyGov is a fast and secure way to access a range of government services online with one username and password. You can create a myGov account at.my.gov.au and link it to your Child Support online account. We look forward to hearing from you, Regards Warren
A question a lot of fathers talk about killing themselfs as its the only way out of the CSA circle my question would be what would the mother tell the kids " sorry daddy killed himself as he didnt want to pay csa no more "
Not really fair on the kids is it to grow up thinking that?
Im not being rude or anything Im fighting them myself to get whats far for my kids and my partner is fighting them too but he went to court and still going throu court just is he would never even think about killing himself over it his kid means the world to him CSA ex bitch gf or not
1. Don't ever enter into any agreement with agents of CSA (ie. no applications, agreements or phone contact). Don't fall for their nice as pie routine at the start so they can form an agreement, which is their aim. They absolutely don't give a f*ck about you + that's all you have to understand + remember.
2. Always reject/decline[rebut] their offers or counter offer with big charges if they want to do business with you. Use conditional acceptance.
3. Learn what commercial agreements + contracts are.
4. Always seek proof of any debt incl. copy of any contract with all the essential elements, actual accounting + signed invoice/affidavit showing exchange of value.
5. Learn how to deal with debt commercially with limited liability + as MAN with unlimited liability. Any debt no matter how big can always be discharged by signing the back of the original charging instrument, if they ever took it to court. Just don't argue + keep in honour. Their whole system is contracts.
All their games are FRAUD + commercial law. Time to take off the rose coloured glasses + research + research. They prey on our ignorance + emotional obfuscation + the fact our animal brains wanna punch their heads in cos of the wrong they perpetuate -- the whole industry of theft..
MAN created entity/fiction (ie. CSA)
Who has the supreme authority,, Man or CSA?
Now I am getting really concerned for myself though, and I don't know what to do....
I will still have to pay these criminals until about 2018. Hopefully, I will then clear up my "fake debt". But by then, I'm assuming that no bank is going to give me a mortgage of any kind at all. :-( because I turn 50 in January 2017.
I swear, it makes me want to go out and do something criminal.
I could try to get a cheaper place to live in the Philippines (so I can be with my youngest daughter) but I've looked, and I'm still looking at about $150,000 for something in her small town.
I honestly think that the only way I'm going to set a future for my youngest, is to kill myself in a few years, and hope that my insurance and Super can cover things for her.
Interesting that CSA "cunts" are the biggest cause of male suicide in Australia, but nobody say a fucking word. Also weird that as I'm getting older, I am fearing death less and less. But that's another story......
Dont ever talk to those fks at csa, if you do dont ever tell them anything especially your marital status. Do they tell you your exs marital status? Everything is privacy regarding her but not YOU. They are profiling you analyzing you and sooner or later will fk you.
And regarding not saying anything bad about your ex infront of your kids...
I don't buy that crap,
When the time is right ,the truth should not be hidden or diluted.
And in my case it probably wont matter anyway. With the amount of poison,isolation and lies my ex has fed my son he most likely wont even want to know me soon. But hey who am I but a sponsor.
Solicitors are disgusting maggots/rats dressed in suits to look more appealing.
CSA .....CANNOT.... take money from a spouses bank account unless they (CSA) PROVE in a court that that father has transfered that money to you and the court agrees and makes a judgement in their favourite. But be aware that if they are chasing your husband then they are looking into your finances in the background as well. My wife and I have had 20 years of this shit. My wife has a file with them and only found out through FOI. But there a ways around it. Husband owns a company....said company pays rent.to said wife...get creative people. Use the law as they use it against you. Don't fall for their bullying as that is all it is. The worst they can do is stop you leaving Australia...DPO. they CANNOT jail you for not paying child support
I objected to an assessment by the CSA, then objected to the decision made out of that, then appealed the decision of the AAT, and now we are going to the Federal Circuit Court. Submissions are lodged, and the hearing will be in December.
There is some hope that there may not be a hearing. If the CSA, on reading my submissions, agree that I have a point, then the matter can go back to the AAT without a hearing - this is what I am hopeful of, though not really that worried about a hearing as I believe I have a good case.
In any event, by early December I should have a pretty good idea of where I am at ... looking up
My story is a long one. Lived with a girl for 9 months had sex a few times left as she was crazy. 3 years later i find my tax return was stolen by CSA i call to find out that a claim has been made and that no proof was ever gave. According to the CSA she made a phone call. I have requested all documents to be gave to me they refuse as they have none!! I asked how can this happen without my authority they said they sent me letters and i did not respond. Now heres the thing. She makes a phonecall gives no proof to me being father just her say so then gives her own address at the time as my address. Now this should be the first red flag! she claims i ran off but yet my address is the same as hers?? WTF. So now 6 years on i still refuse to pay and each year they take my tax return. They also have been trying to get my wifes information as they said they have the power to take her money. Now few things 1. I moved out after 9 months she was pregnant after this date. This is the only time i responded to CSA they asked for proof that i was not living with her i showed i was not and gave the docs proving this. That the dates could not match up they replied saying. Basically get f#cked we are CSA a law of our own and even tho you have proof we do not agree and even tho she has gave no proof we are still going to rob you. Finally after 5 yers of me and my wife struggling to get our own home and have our own child we can almost afford to start court process to get tests done. When the paternity proof says i am not the father aparently the CSA have done nothing wrong and the thousands of dollers illegally STOLEN from me they do not have to pay me back!!! WTFFF!!! I will then need to take the crazy bitch to claims court to force her to pay me back. At which my lawyer has informed me she can pay 10cents a week for the next few 100 years. The whole system is fraudulent and needs to be reassesed and changed ASAP. Ppl rattle on about equality. How about if 2 ppl are together or even just a one night stand one wants a child the other does not why is it the womans right to make that choice if the guy does not want a child then their should be a document that states the father has no wrights to the child but also does not have to pay. As the woman takes full responsibility. It should be both parents decision to have a kid. As if a woman does not want a child she can just get an abortion. Again with the man having no rights or say to stop her.
It is a fact that dads will be treated with utter disregard and disrespect when divorced. Try calling anywhere as a dad worried about the welfare of your children. Get used to being treated like you have just commited the worst crime, that you are not an equal parent, that you do not matter. Oh but stay poor and keep handing over the money.
2 choices.....sit in the corner, grab your knees and rock back and forth.
See the situation for what it is. Ride it out. Enjoy the time we have with our kids. Celebrate like hell when the ex no longer has any control over you. Do all you can to ensure your kids reach adulthood being the least affected possible . Show your kids love.....never bag your ex in front of them or in earshot.......take care of yourselves, your health and mental health, build freindships and move on.
Good luck to all
I would like to get some opinions if possible please; I have just got off of the phone with CSA.
As I explained to them, part of the reason I am in arrears, is that my child access has been minimal. But this has been through the following actions by my ex wife.
1. She cut off the mobiles that I had purchased my daughters.
2. She moved home in Perth without telling me, or leaving a forwarding address. By chance, her neighbour told me.
3. She has to move to Mt Tom Price and work there for three years, because she pissed off so many people in the Education Department in Perth. Obviously, I could not afford $800 per fortnight to fly up there and see my kids.
4. She returned to Perth about a year ago, I only found this out because of her Facebook profile.
How do you think the Family Court would see this?
I have always paid my Cs and about 2 years ago my daughter told me she never wants to see me again. So as fathers do I seek mediation , ex refuses to go 2 years later I'm here right now at family law courts waiting the outcome of a child inclusive mediation session.
So 2 years ago my ex gets the shits because I fight to get access to daughter, she submits a change of assessment which invokes a investigation in to my financials and the csa in their wisdom put my Cs up 4 fold
Even withstanding I have 4 other children to my wife now 3, 5 and 8
I am booked to go overseas in 2 weeks with my family, but the csa has informed me the have placed a departure ban on my passport, I now have to explain to my family I can't go on holidays with them.
My objection to the change of assessment was lodged over two months ago via a lawyer and csa claim they don't have it and I now need to apply for a time extension for them to proceed.
I think I'm about to loose my family because of this my wife is more stressed than I am
The truth is out there but csa don't like facts they are bullies
My partner spend 10 yrs trying to find his son
3 yrs ago he found him and went straight to family court to get access his ex didnt show for 6 court cases so the judge put out a breach she turned up to the last 1. Judge told her to her face women like you make my job hard now have 1 more court case to set throu next yr to see if he can see his kid. Court does work so try that. Judge had csa drop his payments down from 805 a month ( my partner payed every month since kid was born )kids now 15 to just under 200 a month to show he has other kids to support as it doent take 805 a month to raise a child a court order is the only way csa will drop payments as they wont believe a thing you say. is going to court worth it in the end yes it is their your kids fight anyway you have to just so you can see them goes for everyone out there
I have paid almost $30,000 per year for the last 4 years .. yes, that is per year. making a change of assessment application costs nothing, objecting to it costs nothing, going to the administrative appeals tribunal costs nothing, and so far, going to the Federal Circuit Court has cost me nothing ....
If you think you have a case - TAKE HER ON ....
I was just surprised that there was no-one on here going through the court processes that was willing to discuss .. I know that once I have been through mine (in December) I'd be more than willing to give any guidance to things I learnt / observed ..
Try the Mens Peer Support Forum at www.mensline.org.au - they give really practical advice and try to guide you based on their own crapy experiecnes with CSA and Family Law experiences.
But, I have asked so many times for thoughts / guidance from those going through the change of assessment processes (through the AAT and FCC) - so my only guess is that no-one is going through that process.
If no-one is going through that process, then nothing will change in your circumstances - you have to take a step to start the journey. It has been hard, I lodged mine in Jan 2015, objected twice, went through the AAT, and appealed that to the Federal Circuit Court. in December I will have a hearing ....
if you want change, you have to start "something" else no-one will know it is broken ....
I feel your pain, really. Their system is very unfair, that has left me in debt, case in point for me:
My ex works as a teacher, she was thrown out of 2 schools in Perth for interfering in other teacher classes. Dept of education gave her a choice; go to a country school, or lose your job.
So, she went up to Tom Price for 4 years, and took my kids with her. Because she was far away, CSA attitude was I could not be bothered to see my kids. How about the $800 air fare costs? And that is why my debt has been back dated.
This is a really fucked up process. They should look at the people as well.
Ex is a true psycho.
1. It was accumulated over a period while I was unemployed and for a lot of that time with no income at all.
2. The debt is not to my children or my ex, it is to an unfair corrupt department in the CSA that takes money off vulnerable fathers that have been stripped of their families who are depressed and then with the further burden of being put into debt by unfair late fees are on the brink of suicide.
I gave my ex all of our assets at the time of our split so my children wouldn't suffer and so they had a roof over their heads, but for some reason that doesn't count for anything. I give my children all I can afford and now pay for half the school fees and other bills direct.
By taking money from my pay this stops me from being able to live a happy life enjoying being with my children.
I am being slugged $$$$ out of my pay this week. That's the money I would have used to feed my kids next week when they are with me. That's less money I can spend on my children's Christmas presents. That part of the money I could be spending on school fees and I have to live as well, pay rent, run a car, eat, stay healthy and I do this all for my children and they still take money from me.
The system is unfair
CSA is unfair.
I contribute to my children and I'm there for them, so why does CSA make it harder for me to do this than it already is.
I'm in exactly the same situation. It's so hard to sit back and watch them go through this emotional hell and what csa and politicians don't realise is the strain this puts on your relationship.
Start writing to MPs etc and tell them from a wife's point a view the more of us that do it the better.
Hang in there and just pray WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!!
The information is here:
"A notice under section 72A cannot be effective against a joint bank account because it is not possible to identify any portion as belonging solely to one owner (DFC of T v Westpac Savings Bank Ltd 87 ATC 4346)."
You have my sympathies, and I am really angry for you and your new partner. I am the wife of a man who has been to hell and back for the last 13 years with the Child Support Agency while his lazy sow of an ex wife has sat on her arse doing nothing, and we work ourselves to death to pay for her lifestyle.
I have spoken to the CSA about her cash jobs but they want me to prove it, which is quiet difficult, being in a different country. I just feel that my assessment should be based on the cost of living in the country that the child is living in, Ireland. The maximum i would have to pay a week there is 150 Euro, and that is if i was earning a huge salary, which as an electrician, i would not be. On average over here i have paid $1100 a month for the last 4 years which is crippling me and my family. We are living on the other side of the world without any support network from our families so you tend to rely on your financies a bit more.
By the way, someone said, have a joint bank account, i do and a joint savings account with my partner and only last week, these cockroaches went into it and took out $3500 without even telling me. I could not believe what had happened, my bank said it was a court order and they could not stop it from happening. This has sent me over the edge and made me realise my time in this country might be really coming to an end. I have never felt more violated in my life. They just totally ignored the $11000 credit card dept that i have, funded my trip home recently, and saw my savings, our safety net, a couple of grand, and figured out that i should service this debt that i had. This was on top a her receiving all my tax return, $6000, in August, and also, what i have paid her every month over the year. It makes me so angry!!
I hadnt worked since I was back in Australia then CSA started to automatically take from centrelink payments. After I stopped centrelink I lived with my girl friend and she supported me. I think CSA asked ATO to force me to do tax after I finished with centrelink so I did a zero tax return (some income few hundred dollars from bank interest was my income). So after I did my tax returns all close to zero or around $300 to $2000 interest from divorce settled savings. Now that my savings have been depleted to approx $5000 the CSA said I owe $100 a month but I couldnt pay it as I was being supported by GF and Family, I told CSA I had no job they said to go on newstart and I said I dont want to as I am being supported. So if they can see my bank depleting slowly they can see I have no job but they still insist I have income from somewhere. They asked if my GF can pay it, I said its not her responsibility and not my place to ask money off my GF. I have no contact with my child as the mother said she doesnt want to see me. Now they forcibly took money from my bank approx 1 years worth $1200 to 1300.
I have borrowed money to my gf by bank transfer and she has paid me back several times so I am wondering if CSA think that I was getting income from her? even though I borrowed her $4000 in total last year.
I am confused what to do. Any idea what to do? review my case? but whats the use if they have already decided!?? Anyone had luck with Ombudsman?
When they did that to you, did you receive any paperwork from CSA, or did you try to go on holiday and get stopped at the airport?
I am going to try to pay like a good boy, but in March I am going to want and NEED this holiday to see my daughter. I need an escape from the grind of working seven days a week for shit pay.